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Post by Israfil on Mar 15, 2016 17:57:50 GMT -5
I'm just curious, if Jon was drinking, and that was the cause of the accident, shouldn't that have been obvious to the first responders at the scene? Not to mention, the tests at the hospital would undoubtedly have included a blood test, which would have picked up any alcohol. If that really was the cause of the accident, then shouldn't be looking forward to a date with a judge, right now, instead of just being worried about being the new kid in school? Addressing part of your question - he wasn't actually drunk at the time of the accident. The hangover was definitely part of it but more than anything else he was just tired. None of us (unless you're a particularly gifted individual) are at our best after being up most of the night partying. Geoff's implication that he got wasted was based more on assumption than objective fact.
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Post by Dabeagle on Mar 15, 2016 21:33:32 GMT -5
Just drawing a contrast between 'boy next door' types (SS boys to date) and 'affluenza teen' types (Ellesier brothers)... definitely guilty of stereotyping. A similar comparison is between Ehren (troubled teen) and Tris (boy next door). Ehren doesn't want to 'contaminate' Tris' world with his 'negative' influence. To readers, SS was an idealized small town universe populated by people 'uncontaminated' by the problems of the larger 'real' world. The Ellesier brothers bring in a small dose of another reality. I don't think I agree with the observation, but it's an interesting point of view. Thanks for sharing it!
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pedro
Young Hound
Posts: 78
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Post by pedro on Mar 16, 2016 2:08:49 GMT -5
I'm just curious, if Jon was drinking, and that was the cause of the accident, shouldn't that have been obvious to the first responders at the scene? Not to mention, the tests at the hospital would undoubtedly have included a blood test, which would have picked up any alcohol. If that really was the cause of the accident, then shouldn't be looking forward to a date with a judge, right now, instead of just being worried about being the new kid in school? Addressing part of your question - he wasn't actually drunk at the time of the accident. The hangover was definitely part of it but more than anything else he was just tired. None of us (unless you're a particularly gifted individual) are at our best after being up most of the night partying. Geoff's implication that he got wasted was based more on assumption than objective fact. Sorry Israfil, I have to agree with jnwrx1 on this one. I don't know what constitutes a 'pack of beer' that you refer to in the story, but if I assume 4 x 10floz bottles each pack would be equivalent to 2 imperial (not US) pints. If Jon had had the four packs of beer you suggest at the party, that would be eight pints which would take at least16hours to get through his system. So unless the party started and finished mighty early Jon would still have had alcohol in his blood. Having said that, the cause of the accident was the impatient driver coming the other way, but jon's slowed reaction would have been contributory to his not taking avoiding action in time. FWIW a lot of DUI drivers are caught in the UK the morning after. They think they have slept it off but it takes more time than they realise. re the System/Dabeagle exchange. I agree with D that all is not sweetness and light in the town, but you have to admit the Ellesiers are a direct contrast to the town's first family:the Kirkwoods
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Post by PaulR5 on Mar 16, 2016 9:16:04 GMT -5
Addressing part of your question - he wasn't actually drunk at the time of the accident. The hangover was definitely part of it but more than anything else he was just tired. None of us (unless you're a particularly gifted individual) are at our best after being up most of the night partying. Geoff's implication that he got wasted was based more on assumption than objective fact. Sorry Israfil, I have to agree with jnwrx1 on this one. I don't know what constitutes a 'pack of beer' that you refer to in the story, but if I assume 4 x 10floz bottles each pack would be equivalent to 2 imperial (not US) pints. If Jon had had the four packs of beer you suggest at the party, that would be eight pints which would take at least16hours to get through his system. So unless the party started and finished mighty early Jon would still have had alcohol in his blood. Having said that, the cause of the accident was the impatient driver coming the other way, but jon's slowed reaction would have been contributory to his not taking avoiding action in time. FWIW a lot of DUI drivers are caught in the UK the morning after. They think they have slept it off but it takes more time than they realise. re the System/Dabeagle exchange. I agree with D that all is not sweetness and light in the town, but you have to admit the Ellesiers are a direct contrast to the town's first family:the Kirkwoods In many states, it is illegal for any person under 21 to have ANY alcohol in their bloodstream. I don't know about New York. That said, New York's legal limit for blood alcohol is 8 tenths of one percent according to info I found via Bing.com. Even if his metabolism is faster than normal, he should have had some blood alcohol left. As far as Sanitaria Springs being a town of "sweetness and light," it seems more open and accepting about gay/bi issues for SOME, though but there are plenty of other problems, or Griffin would not have been beaten and raped by Royce; Chase would not have been raped by Melissa Wallace; Lucien's first bus would not have been vandalized and burned; Alec would not have been beaten and badly injured; Asher would not have been raped by Ed Mullins; Carol Dudley would have welcomed Austin with open arms; and auto accidents would never happen. Looking forward to seeing what else happens in SS.
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Post by Sy on Mar 16, 2016 21:19:25 GMT -5
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Post by Sy on Mar 17, 2016 18:35:45 GMT -5
Apologies for the non-comment. The technology got the better of me. Rewriting my original comments really brings to light how much work it is to organize my thoughts and put them into words to make a point. And this is just a few paragraphs! I greatly admire the work of writers who can build worlds with a few words and take us readers into an alternate reality. This also to emphasize that I am not seeking to put down anyone's work. I am just sharing my perception of the stories under discussion...
I was trying to build on comments made by paulr5:
As far as Sanitaria Springs being a town of "sweetness and light," it seems more open and accepting about gay/bi issues for SOME, though but there are plenty of other problems, or Griffin would not have been beaten and raped by Royce; Chase would not have been raped by Melissa Wallace; Lucien's first bus would not have been vandalized and burned; Alec would not have been beaten and badly injured; Asher would not have been raped by Ed Mullins; Carol Dudley would have welcomed Austin with open arms; and auto accidents would never happen.
The major reason I find the SS stories somewhat unrealistic is the high degree of emotional resilience shared by all the boys to date. Alec and Lucien's insecurities were addressed in specific stories but they were seemingly fully resolved with intense bouts of heart-to-heart talk 'therapy' with their respective boyfriends. Kale's uptightness is treated more as a running gag; boys have been raped, beatened, physically and emotionally abused yet none of them seem to suffer any major chronic emotional consequence... think PTSD type reactions; problems forming relationships; fear/avoidance of certain activities.
It's very possible that the short story format of these stories limits this type of approach but this newest SS story, Pint Size Prince, introduces characters who seem to wallow in emotional baggage. It will be interesting to see how the town of SS reacts.
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Post by Dabeagle on Mar 17, 2016 19:33:19 GMT -5
Apologies for the non-comment. The technology got the better of me. Rewriting my original comments really brings to light how much work it is to organize my thoughts and put them into words to make a point. And this is just a few paragraphs! I greatly admire the work of writers who can build worlds with a few words and take us readers into an alternate reality. This also to emphasize that I am not seeking to put down anyone's work. I am just sharing my perception of the stories under discussion... I was trying to build on comments made by paulr5: As far as Sanitaria Springs being a town of "sweetness and light," it seems more open and accepting about gay/bi issues for SOME, though but there are plenty of other problems, or Griffin would not have been beaten and raped by Royce; Chase would not have been raped by Melissa Wallace; Lucien's first bus would not have been vandalized and burned; Alec would not have been beaten and badly injured; Asher would not have been raped by Ed Mullins; Carol Dudley would have welcomed Austin with open arms; and auto accidents would never happen. The major reason I find the SS stories somewhat unrealistic is the high degree of emotional resilience shared by all the boys to date. Alec and Lucien's insecurities were addressed in specific stories but they were seemingly fully resolved with intense bouts of heart-to-heart talk 'therapy' with their respective boyfriends. Kale's uptightness is treated more as a running gag; boys have been raped, beatened, physically and emotionally abused yet none of them seem to suffer any major chronic emotional consequence... think PTSD type reactions; problems forming relationships; fear/avoidance of certain activities. It's very possible that the short story format of these stories limits this type of approach but this newest SS story, Pint Size Prince, introduces characters who seem to wallow in emotional baggage. It will be interesting to see how the town of SS reacts. I think those are very important points, Sy, and I'd like to respond to them to a degree, and thank you for starting the conversation. First, yes, our guys do have an unreasonable level of maturity and emotional resilience as you noted. I tend to make my characters smarter than they should/would/might be for their ages and estimated maturity levels. I like smart people and I like teens I can/could speak or relate to, and so it's a common failing of my work. Firstly, even though there are issues, Sanitaria Springs does have an escapist feel to it. I prefer to think we've largely erred on the side of less probable that unbelievable. Having said that, there are definitely technical issues that don't always get addressed in an overt manner. The major reason for that is, unlike a traditional serial story, we don't check in on folks day to day. Instead we make periodic check-ins and not always with the same people or points of view. Sometimes an ongoing issue is alluded to or given a secondary scene, unless the issue is the focus of the chapter or the point of view of the character currently being followed. It was a conscious decision not to, for instance, follow Asher for months or longer as he wrestled over and over with his rape and the intimacy problems that can manifest from that. Instead, we moved forward with some of his healing process. Was that an error in storytelling? I think it's debatable and there is no 100% correct answer. I know there are folks that would have been interested in what he went through and how he dealt with it and, how he has gone since then, may not make as much sense because I left that out. We allude frequently to Griffin and his therapy and the issues he faced after his horrid relationship with Royce. There can always be more and some of that could have come from his point of view, but we decided to tell other stories. So I don't think you're wrong; in fact, you have a valid point of view. I will just say that it was a conscious decision to write about the things that we did. We were just as guilty in terms of writing the things that we wanted to, that interested us, and frankly following a long rehabilitation wasn't something I wanted to do. I know that may sound lazy, especially since we put the characters in those positions, but there you have it. I'm always glad to have these conversations and explain why some decisions were made. I don't feel that you were putting me down or my work, but I certainly do appreciate the elaboration as I was definitely...confused at best by the initial comment. I do encourage all readers to share your opinions freely, but respectfully, so that we can have these chats about stories, decisions that were made and the ups and downs of each story. Thanks for the conversation!
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Post by PaulR5 on Mar 18, 2016 1:28:41 GMT -5
Well, I feel that most of the therapy has been behind the scenes. We know Griffin has had extensive therapy. We know, from an early dialog between Devyn and Griffin, that Devin has been in therapy. He well could be in therapy still. Often therapy becomes less frequent with time, but not always. Asher has had some therapy while at the group home, and it was implied that some of that might have continued later. I seem to recall that Sean was greatly broken up by his mother's death, and even though his family, especially Andrew, Evelyn, and Jamie, were very supportive, he is still adjusting to things, even as far as the present timeline has extended.
Sometimes a pointed or oblique comment from a friend accomplishes what therapy takes longer to do. I have been in therapy twice. Someone near and dear to me has been in therapy three times. The difference between our results was amazing. The near and dear person has three mental illnesses plus some PTSD. That combination means that traditional therapy does not work as effectively as with "normal or near normal people." After while, the third therapist for near and dear politely gave up.
Lucien's insecurity issues were helped greatly by Alec, Sasha, and Robin, but his parents, Doug and Alice Kutsenko, have helped him a lot, and also the great respect he has for Judge Andrew Kirkwood, has been very good for him. We know Billy and Seth both had extensive recovery times from what Billy did to Seth. Billy had much therapy; Seth probably had at least some.
I can't remember who else has had therapy in SS, but when I was growing up, therapy was very rare. (I am 64 as of this writing.) We HAD to learn to deal─ sometimes imperfectly. I see a lot of healthy guys (and a few healthy girls/women) who have good, practical suggestions which some are wise enough to take to heart.
Considering how short most of the stories are, instead of being novels, the vast majority of stories do a great job, and appreciate all the authors.
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Post by TeddyBower on Mar 18, 2016 14:32:57 GMT -5
I'm a bit late to this conversation. Life has been too busy. Like the other guys, I'm impressed with the possibilities and the characters as presented. No, they're definitely not necessarily lovable, at least in the same manner that many of the other boys are, at least not yet, but I do like them already. All bets are off however if they interfere in relationship I've come to love! ;-)
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Post by TeddyBower on Mar 18, 2016 15:41:22 GMT -5
Just drawing a contrast between 'boy next door' types (SS boys to date) and 'affluenza teen' types (Ellesier brothers)... definitely guilty of stereotyping. A similar comparison is between Ehren (troubled teen) and Tris (boy next door). Ehren doesn't want to 'contaminate' Tris' world with his 'negative' influence. To readers, SS was an idealized small town universe populated by people 'uncontaminated' by the problems of the larger 'real' world. The Ellesier brothers bring in a small dose of another reality. I don't think I agree with the observation, but it's an interesting point of view. Thanks for sharing it! Exactly. I had that same "boy next door" impression of the SS boys but it' really was a false impression on my part. While a number of them are like that not all are. Several come from very dysfunctional and broken backgrounds and have handled that dysfunction with varying degrees of success. I'll grant you that most have seemingly done better than Jon, Geoff, and Richard have. That's how I see it, at least.
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Post by Israfil on Apr 19, 2016 15:29:54 GMT -5
No, they're definitely not necessarily lovable, at least in the same manner that many of the other boys are, at least not yet, but I do like them already. All bets are off however if they interfere in relationship I've come to love! ;-) Not even Jon? (kidding) And I guess that depends how quickly you've come to love said relationship...
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Post by Dabeagle on Apr 19, 2016 19:49:39 GMT -5
I like Jon best out of all of them, because I feel like he's the biggest victim, overall.
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Post by TeddyBower on Apr 19, 2016 20:04:34 GMT -5
Very much agree on that. He seems like the one with the most potential to make a go of things in spite of all the drama from the brothers.
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Post by Israfil on Apr 20, 2016 10:17:41 GMT -5
You know, he's actually grown on me. I've become a lot more interested in his development than I initially thought I would be. However, as I'm sure you suspect, they're all victims in their own way. We haven't even explained the video incident yet... Welp, better get back to proofing that draft!
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