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Post by Dabeagle on Mar 23, 2016 13:12:51 GMT -5
I've had more than one person dear to me in a mental hospital or some kind of (necessary) locked facility. Only one of six times did it NOT seem abrupt when they got out. Asher and Sean NEED each other. but their relationship is becoming healthier. Scott has Jamie, among others, and some will be watching Scott without even realizing they are doing so. The increased awareness about others often follows an episode such as this. And I know far more about some of this than I ever wanted to know.... Elliot and Devyn and Griffin, and maybe Teddy and Trent, as well as all the Kirkwoods, will be watching Sean and Asher, and to a lesser extent Scott. There is a bit of a fraternity with those who use sign language. Trent is probably learning a bit to communicate with Teddy's mom, and we still don't know much about Teddy's brother.... That's interesting. I'd think that, when people come back into society, they try to 'get back into the swing' as it were. Dwelling on being in rehab or something similar isn't fun and I'd imagine they throw themselves back into life. Of course, I could be wrong never having dealt with it. I do think people will keep an eye on Scott, and he has developed a pattern. Kids can become addicts, of course, and that option could be available at some point. People do develop these things, sometimes, right under other's noses so it's possible. I think it's likelier that Asher has more oversight than Scott simply because he's part of the larger group; a brotherhood that looks out for each other. Having Scott participate more with his girlfriend du jour might make things more 'normalized' and include him more, but I think Ryan was shying away from it by not including Jamie's girlfriend in things. Until you mentioned it, I didn't recall Teddy having a brother...
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Post by Dabeagle on Mar 23, 2016 13:15:44 GMT -5
While I agree with you that it's a tough story in some respect (I felt a little bit of it too when reading it), as it's hard to witness adversity, fictional or not. That the author was able to trigger that reaction in the readers speaks to both his craft in this particular piece as well as the world and character set-up overall which has readers so invested. Also that was a slight tangent. What I intended to reply to was that yes, it is worrisome that Scott's little trust ritual with the shots triggered a bad reaction in Sean, but I'd like to point out that from what I remember the drink itself wasn't meant to "cure their insecurities" so much as to symbolize something along the lines of a "safe space" where the guys could speak freely. Unfortunately, Sean's anxiety caused him to try and use it as a sleep aid. Yes, it wasn't exactly the height of responsibility but neither was it intended as a way to get wasted and forget one's cares. Now, that's not to say there aren't those in town who do drink to cure their insecurities or dull their problems. But I wouldn't know anything about that >_> I agree, it is hard to witness it sometimes and even more so if you care about the characters. It's always a goal to make the reader care and feel, and I thank you for that comment. And you are correct. Scott was trying to foster a dialogue with Sean to help his brother and friend out. I think Scott suffers from trying to fix things without really knowing how that works. Again, the idea that you go for a beer and the discussion over said beer fixes things was probably on his mind. Then again, he could be a budding alcoholic.
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Post by Dabeagle on Mar 23, 2016 13:23:06 GMT -5
Dave, I think this story is probably the most powerful one in the whole SS series of stories. Yeah, like some of the other guys have mentioned, the SS boys have become rather beloved to me, but the subject matter here, and they way you've presented it... well, I guess I can relate in so many ways and maybe that's what makes it so powerful. Awesome work! Thank you very much! When I started this story line, Ryan and I discussed things quite a bit. He opened the door to Sean's romance by writing 'A Funny Thing'. When Cookie Monster finished up, the potential for problems was still there and we chatted about what could happen, this time from Sean's end and this was the result. Now, in real life, Sean will be trying hard but unstable, have difficult times in his recovery and I'm sure Asher would make mistakes, too. At the time Ryan had said to me 'they've been through enough, can't they just be happy now?' And there are certainly characters where we say that to ourselves - can't they just be happy now? What else can the universe throw at them? In life, things don't just dry up like that, though. My question to Ryan at the time was how long they might last, given that Sean's self-doubt may come back, attraction to girls, etc. His response was that he thought Sean'd change his tune and understand far more when he eventually bottomed for Asher, understanding what Asher had been experiencing and thus make their relationship more balanced. While I may one day explore that, I've written my fair share of 'sexual healing' stories - having just completed another one - and I'm not sure we need another one right now.
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Post by PaulR5 on Mar 23, 2016 22:43:33 GMT -5
Until you mentioned it, I didn't recall Teddy having a brother... Teddy's brother is mentioned in the SS story, "Homecoming." From Homecoming: “The Hoover won’t get jealous, will she?” asked Teddy. Jamie turned beat red. We all started laughing, Jamie gave us the finger and we just laughed harder until Jamie whacked Trent with a pillow.
The fight was on, we beat the crap out of each other in the pillow fight of the century until Jamie moved at a weird angle and yelped. “You alright?” I asked. “Yeah, stupid ankle,” Jamie grumbled. “Here, let me help you,” said Teddy. He pulled Jamie’s foot into his lap and began to massage the ankle. “Me and my brother run track in the fall, we’re always having to do this for each other.”
“That feels really good,” Jamie cooed. “Yeah, you’ve just gotta work the muscles,” said Teddy..... Since I re-read it three months ago, it's still fresh in my mind.
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Post by jnwrx1 on Mar 24, 2016 0:33:43 GMT -5
Sorry to do this, but... Can't say I really liked it, cause I kind of didn't. I can appreciate the emotional cost of even writing the story, and I understand why it's important to building the SS universe, but I still didn't really like seeing Sean like this... I really would have preferred a less extreme way for him to deal with trying to find his identity, especially in the way it affected Asher. In that sense, I actually think the ending was also too abrupt after the development of the story. I think Ash and Sean need to take a lot of time and careful thought before they really even think about going straight back to full on boyfriends. Also, I think someone also maybe needs to have a talk with Scott after this, too, because he might be the next one to self-destruct, if he's trying to teach his friends to cure their insecurities with shots. Thanks for the honest reply, and I'm sorry you didn't enjoy it. When we get invested in characters it can be hard to see them in peril or making poor choices using flawed logic. However, Sean's story has the unique side of having not known his father, and then suddenly being thrust into family dynamics. Yes, Jamie and Sean formed a tight bond rather quickly, which kids can do, but in truth when we deal with human problems, they are messy. We don't sit through everyone's recovery, everyone's therapy sessions or see every mistake they make - it's not the nature of Sanitaria Springs to do that. Given that, and the established problems Sean had coming to terms with himself - and then having added the pressure of going back to school and being someone different than he had been the previous school year - that can create a lot of pressure. Scott simply thinks he's loosening tongues and teens sometimes think that's an answer. After all, TV shows and movies and even their own families may 'go for a beer' after a hard day, or 'want a glass of wine'. While I don't condone a teenager doing that, I also think it's a realistic thing for him to have done that had unintended consequences. Sean, not having been a drinker - and perhaps he's predisposed to get tired from alcohol - decided to use it to self medicate, another very common thought process in this country. Also, while they remain boyfriends, I didn't mean to say or imply that they just picked p from where they left off. I'm sure they aren't having sex, for instance, given their last encounter. I'm sure things are going to be raw for some time as trust needs to build and new issues must be worked through before they can fully recover - that would have taken months to cover, however, and fell outside the scope of this chapter. Thanks for reading and putting your thoughts up for discussion.
Well I said I kind of didn't like it... The part I just don't get, that seems completely off the wall is how Sean is portrayed in this story.
I can understand they were having relationship issues, and that problems were going to occur, but the things Sean did just seem so extreme... Even in a stressful situation and identity crisis I find it hard to believe he'd go so far out of character for so long. In previous stories, he's been shown as overtly sensitive and even afraid of arguing and fighting... How could he have been changed this much, that he'd be so unaware that he was acting like something he should be inherently afraid of? I know he admitted that he he realized how he'd been acting and was just ignoring it, but I still just don't see how it could change his core nature this much.
How could he close his eyes to the romantic nature of the relationship he had with Asher, and the fact the he's been the one in the past to set up the romantic scenes, or the fact that he's the one who asked Asher to be his boyfriend? Maybe it's a sad, but utterly true observation on the impacts of social structures in high schools, that teasing at school, especially in the locker room can drive him so far from his true identity that he literally became a different person and even pretty much abandoned his family and friends, and the many examples of real relationships right in front of him, even if they are a little overly idealized.
(Where was Jamie in the locker room, by the way?)
Maybe the reality is that Sean being so afraid of fighting and arguing in the past is an indicator of how unformed his identity really is, and how deep his lack of confidence runs, and he realized, to his dismay, that he really wasn't strong enough to stand up to the questions and social challenges that might come with being in a relationship with Asher. We never really have had much insight into what life was like for Sean before he entered the series, or what his previous school life was like. It seems as though, at the end of the day, some of his reactions may have been the result of extreme panic when he realized how overwhelmed he was by a new reality.
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Post by Dabeagle on Mar 24, 2016 6:12:41 GMT -5
I think you figured it out for yourself. And as to Jamie's whereabouts, they may not have gym together or may have simply not been present at other times - after all, they are near twins but not Siamese!
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Post by Dabeagle on Mar 24, 2016 6:13:34 GMT -5
Until you mentioned it, I didn't recall Teddy having a brother... Teddy's brother is mentioned in the SS story, "Homecoming." From Homecoming: “The Hoover won’t get jealous, will she?” asked Teddy. Jamie turned beat red. We all started laughing, Jamie gave us the finger and we just laughed harder until Jamie whacked Trent with a pillow.
The fight was on, we beat the crap out of each other in the pillow fight of the century until Jamie moved at a weird angle and yelped. “You alright?” I asked. “Yeah, stupid ankle,” Jamie grumbled. “Here, let me help you,” said Teddy. He pulled Jamie’s foot into his lap and began to massage the ankle. “Me and my brother run track in the fall, we’re always having to do this for each other.”
“That feels really good,” Jamie cooed. “Yeah, you’ve just gotta work the muscles,” said Teddy..... Since I re-read it three months ago, it's still fresh in my mind. I'd like to say I don't remember because I didn't write it, but I have to go back to re-read details while writing things all the time.
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Post by TeddyBower on Mar 24, 2016 8:54:43 GMT -5
I want to add another comment to what I said earlier and it goes back to what jnwrx1 said about kind of not liking it. I kind of didn't like it either but by the same token it spoke to me in ways that kind of hit close to home.
I'm the kind of guy who loves a happy ending. I love a story where all is goodness and light, bunnies and rainbows, glitter and unicorns, but life isn't like that. I dislike it that Sean has gone through this. I dislike it even more that he's done what he's done to Asher. I'd like to sucker punch his effing lights out for that, and I hope Asher walks very carefully around Sean for awhile without abandoning him. Those boys need each other and from the way Dave left the tale I think they both have a basic understanding of what's what.
As the song says, love hurts and live sends us lessons we don't always appreciate and sometimes things just go all to hell and never get fixed. Cynus and I have discussed a couple of times about killing off characters and I certainly don't want us to start doing that here in the SS universe, but I don't think we need to insulate our story writing or our enjoyment of the writing from everything bad that can happen. This story and the sudden death of Robin's boyfriend Charlie(?) for example, or Griffyn and Royce. I think the important thing for the authors and readers alike to remember is that we do need to salvage some happy endings from the bad things that happen
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Post by silentreader on Mar 27, 2016 19:51:22 GMT -5
I let a week go by and then just now re-read Too Low for Zero. I found it quite upsetting the first time I read it. This time (maybe because I knew there'd be a hopeful ending waiting for me) I could read it through and appreciate the issues Sean is dealing with more. For me, it is a well-written, powerful story.
I'm not sure I "enjoyed" reading it, though. Oh, I "like" it, and I appreciate the character development and how the issues are dealt with. (I've never been an inpatient - or an outpatient, for that matter - at a facility like Sean, so I can't know for sure, but the details about Sean's experience seemed as it they may be very accurate.) So I am full of praise for the story. But it wasn't exactly "enjoyable" to read about Sean (and Asher, and others) in so much pain. Does that make any sense? If there was not conflict and pain and growth, these stories would just be fluff. I wouldn't appreciate the stories nearly as much as I do without both the pain and the laughter. But when I grow to care about the characters, sometimes maybe I feel the pain just a little as I am reading. So I liked it a lot - but I didn't "enjoy" it.
I am very interested in reading more, that's for sure. Keep up the good work, (please)!
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Post by jamessavik on Mar 28, 2016 0:37:37 GMT -5
Actually- I've seen lots worse self destruction when people were coming to terms with their identities in the real world where there wasn't a circle of loving and supportive friends and family to help.
Hell, I've even been there myself.
This is where it gets the worst. This is where it is the most confusing and self deceiving. This is what kills so many of our fellows. This is what gives traction to the words of priests and ministers and instead of comfort, delivers hopelessness and misery.
If you've missed out on this turd sandwich, I'm glad. But lot's of us have been there.
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Post by silentreader on Mar 29, 2016 22:37:52 GMT -5
Mr. Savik,
Sincerely, I really am sorry if my post came across as if I feel superior. No, I surely don't feel superior at all. I guess I must be very very lucky (not superior), because what Sean went through in the story seemed pretty bad to me. But, if I make myself think about it, I can think of people I've known who've been more self-destructive than Sean in the story. I saw a bit of that close-up with one of my own real-life sons. I guess I have been lucky (not superior!) that my own self-destructiveness in my life has played out in much milder ways.
I guess I just want to apologize if what I wrote was offensive or Pollyanna-ish or something like that.
S.R.
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