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Post by jnwrx1 on Jan 13, 2019 22:32:40 GMT -5
Wanted to start a thread for this story since I'm just reading it now. (I didn't pre-purchase but if the story is totally written already, you could really update faster  ) It's shaping up to be a really deep intuitive story, though. I really could have used a completely open and supportive family when I was high school age. Even more than that, a group of interested, genuine friends that actually wanted my company would have been epic. It's hard to know yet what ulterior motives Zack & Co. might be operating with, but it sounds like they are generally trying and want to build something. The fourth chapter was an interesting study. It's sad to see how easily Brandon could have forgotten everything that happened, but maybe it's more a symptom of the socio-political landscape of schools, especially high school. Zach seems to want to play mediator, but maybe he also doesn't have the full story, yet. |
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Post by jnwrx1 on Jan 20, 2019 21:57:13 GMT -5
So I'm confused by this one now.
It sounds like this is a pretty liberal school society with Cathy and Seth dating the Williams siblings.
How could someone else be made fun of for so long even up to the present for something else that makes them different.
That doesn't seem to add up.
I'm really liking Brandon though. I wish i could have known someone so willing and eager to reach out and make up for the past, not to mention potentially fall in love with.
If he was afraid of being teased and kept himself hidden for so many years, it's good to see that it doesn't seem to have made him bitter.
He seems to be genuinely a happy outgoing guy, willing to take the leap and risk being himself.
Now I'm just wondering why there was no reaction from the soccer team when Zack yelled. Maybe they're used to him being a clown.
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Post by Dabeagle on Jan 21, 2019 10:42:53 GMT -5
Wanted to start a thread for this story since I'm just reading it now. (I didn't pre-purchase but if the story is totally written already, you could really update faster ) I'm afraid that wouldn't be ethical - after all they did pay to read in advance. |
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Post by Steve T. on Jan 24, 2019 13:38:09 GMT -5
So I'm confused by this one now. It sounds like this is a pretty liberal school society with Cathy and Seth dating the Williams siblings. How could someone else be made fun of for so long even up to the present for something else that makes them different. That doesn't seem to add up. I can kind of see this happening. "The Kiss" took place years ago when the Jerry and Brandon were 9 years old. As I recall, most 4th graders aren't known for their maturity or sensitivity. :-) Maybe the name-calling and taunting continued for a while, but, as I read it, Jerry, in an act self-preservation, pulled back and isolated himself from his peers. While the teasing probably stopped (and the acceptablility to being different changed with the kids' maturing to the point that being different didn't matter as much) Jerry had isolated himself to the point that he may not have even noticed that his peers had "grown the hell up" around him. |
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Post by Dabeagle on Jan 24, 2019 17:36:22 GMT -5
Steve is largely correct. The only thing I'd add in is that sometimes these things have a form of inertia. People get used to calling someone by a certain name and it just becomes second nature, not thought behind it - and sometimes no malice, either. Just a bad habit.
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Post by baddius on Jan 30, 2019 7:02:00 GMT -5
Hmmm... I just kind of assumed that Jerry got so relentlessly made fun of simply because his name rhymed with "Fairy" and it was too much of a pun for them to resist. Studies HAVE shown that we, as a society, react positively to clever wordplay. Furthermore, the same study indicated that people will actually favor a clear lie phrased cleverly or paired with a rhyme or pun than clear truth phrased less colorfully.
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Post by jnwrx1 on Mar 15, 2019 23:04:20 GMT -5
I've been following it, but for some reason, I found this story a lot harder to bring to life than other Dabeagle stories. Mainly it felt like only the scenes with the lead couple felt really well detailed and filled out, while the rest of story left me feeling kind of empty.
As it's been going on, it seems like there are just too many characters: parents, Malina, Malik, Cathy, Ginny, Seth... even Zack... who we barely even get introduced to, and hardly seem to be included in the story.
There seems to be a juxtaposition of them all meeting up, trying to be couples and then breaking up at random with little or no explanation given that builds into the story. Some characters even vanished completely in the case of Jan.
The scenes with Brandon and Jerry alone together are excellent and I really enjoy seeing their relationship develop and deepen, but it seems like they are the only ones inside that reality or having a real relationship with all the other couples around them are disconnecting so abruptly.
Aside from the focus on Brandon and Jerry, I almost got the feeling the rest of the world was empty around them. When Zack yelled at them on the soccer field there was no reaction from anyone else, either cheers or jeers, as if there was no one else that existed there, and that chapter ending felt abrupt and indecisive. Even when they want to the prom, they didn’t seem to meet anyone else, as if there wasn’t anyone else there.
One thing that also really felt odd was the strange dualism of Jerry’s parents. They were totally ecstatic to talk about falling in love, then seemed uptight about Jerry sleeping over with friends but, in contrast, bringing Brandon home from the prom for a sleepover that even included sex was no problem at all for them.
Having said that, I really, really appreciated the most recent actual sex scene with Brandon and Jerry. It just felt so real, so genuine, and they were so honestly respectful and gentle with each other which made their love feel completely genuine.
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Post by paul on Mar 16, 2019 2:15:46 GMT -5
Well, I mostly disagree, and where I disagree, I disagree strongly. The supporting cast is important for a number of reasons. Zack for two: firstly, he provides the platform for revealing some essential parts of Jerry's character: he's prickly, but not in such a way that it prevents him from perceiving that Zack is at heart a good and sensitive person, one who's honestly struggling to correct a wrong he's committed with a friend. Secondly, his situation serves to immediately set up a mystery that intrigues us; who is that friend? Others in that circle, like Seth, provide additional clues. Cathy, with her obsession over Brandon's abs, and others in that bunch illustrate one aspect of attraction which then contrasts with Jerry's growing awareness that he's progressing beyond that and falling in love with Brandon as a person. We get additional insight into Jerry's character in the sub-plots with side characters, plus some nice humor.
Jerry's parents made it clear that their main concern about his relationship with Brandon was that it was happening so quickly, that he seemed to be “wrapped around this boy's finger,” in the words of his father. But at the same time he not only acknowledged that there was no way they could prevent the two from having sex, but that they also probably wouldn't want to. Later, during the post-dance movie night, they found themselves both impressed and reassured by the way Brandon emphasized the importance of trust in his relationship with Jerry.
As for any reactions to their relationship by the rest of the world in the story present, that's pretty much irrelevant to the main issue of how Jerry's resentment over his treatment after the fourth-grade kiss had walled him off, and how it's those in his immediate circle - his friends, his brother Cal and Brandon himself - are the ones who bring him out of it.
I admit to being kind of undecided about the sub-plot with Jerry's sister Jan. I'd be interested in hearing Dabeagle's thoughts on his intentions for that part.
As for explicit sex scenes in stories, my personal feeling is that I could do without them. Learning that characters have sex, and knowing their feelings about it can be important to a narrative, so I'm not at all opposed to that, but for me procedural descriptions seldom, if ever, serve to provide a greater understanding of character and plot.
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Post by Dabeagle on Mar 16, 2019 11:33:47 GMT -5
I've been following it, but for some reason, I found this story a lot harder to bring to life than other Dabeagle stories. Mainly it felt like only the scenes with the lead couple felt really well detailed and filled out, while the rest of story left me feeling kind of empty. As it's been going on, it seems like there are just too many characters: parents, Malina, Malik, Cathy, Ginny, Seth... even Zack... who we barely even get introduced to, and hardly seem to be included in the story. There seems to be a juxtaposition of them all meeting up, trying to be couples and then breaking up at random with little or no explanation given that builds into the story. Some characters even vanished completely in the case of Jan. The scenes with Brandon and Jerry alone together are excellent and I really enjoy seeing their relationship develop and deepen, but it seems like they are the only ones inside that reality or having a real relationship with all the other couples around them are disconnecting so abruptly. Aside from the focus on Brandon and Jerry, I almost got the feeling the rest of the world was empty around them. When Zack yelled at them on the soccer field there was no reaction from anyone else, either cheers or jeers, as if there was no one else that existed there, and that chapter ending felt abrupt and indecisive. Even when they want to the prom, they didn’t seem to meet anyone else, as if there wasn’t anyone else there. One thing that also really felt odd was the strange dualism of Jerry’s parents. They were totally ecstatic to talk about falling in love, then seemed uptight about Jerry sleeping over with friends but, in contrast, bringing Brandon home from the prom for a sleepover that even included sex was no problem at all for them. Having said that, I really, really appreciated the most recent actual sex scene with Brandon and Jerry. It just felt so real, so genuine, and they were so honestly respectful and gentle with each other which made their love feel completely genuine. Thanks for your perspective. Reading is a subjective experience, and open to interpretation on the part of the reader into things the writer may/may not have intended.
In writing this story, all other characters revolve around the primary story of Jerry and Brandon. There is a fine line between fleshing out a supporting character and having them take over a story/scenes. Occasionally that happens just because they are really funny or memorable in some other way. In this case my intent was to tell this story in terms of Jerry's lens and what was important to him. In the beginning of the story, he's a bit more superficial - especially with his friends Cathy and Ginnie. That dynamic changes several times - at school he has a persona, at work he has a different persona, and they began to run together when his different worlds collide - shown by the way he changes how he interacts with Cathy and Ginnie, how he develops trust with Zack and Seth and how he falls for the person in Brandon. Sometimes people are interested in seeing more of the supporting cast, other times they find them to be a distraction, even if a necessary one - again, subjectively reading.
Mentioning the demise of relationships or changes they go through in passing rather than Jerry being fully a part of those changes is, I think, realistic because that does happen around us to not to us, and we should know that the world around him continues to change and evolve.
As far as the sex brought up by yourself and Paul - Paul was correct about the why's with the parents. They expressed a concern and then let their child make his mistakes - it's their parenting style. You cannot improve if you do not taste both failure and success. As far as sex in a story, I don't always include it or if I do, I don't usually go nuts with details. When I do, though, there is a reason for it. In this case it was the translation of their loving respect from dates and casual time also appearing in their more intimate moments. Sometimes I think that is represented best by detailing the time they take, the concern they express and the joy they feel. Other times it's meant to express something else, such as when Ehren was kidnapped in 'Things We Found'.
I'm sorry the story didn't meet your expectations, better luck next time.
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Post by TeddyBower on Mar 19, 2019 2:35:57 GMT -5
I never read a serial until it’s complete so am just now coming to this topic. I originally made the decision because of authors who started stories and never finished them, but anymore it’s because I enjoy binging on a story from beginning to end.
Anyhow, chapter one has the following bit where Zack is hungover and he’s asking questions to which Jerry responds:
“Are you coming out?"
He met my gaze and blinked owlishly. "Uh, no. Just...probably too much thinking with this much of a headache."
Now the part I like is Zack’s reaction as he “blinked owlishly”. It’s so descriptive! I can just see it happening. Very amusing while also being a good literary ploy to pull the reader into the story.
Great work, Dave 😊
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Post by TeddyBower on Mar 23, 2019 19:36:31 GMT -5
I finally finished C&K. Good story.
I’m not ashamed to admit the last scene of the final chapter got me all misty-eyed. You really do tell an excellent tale, Dave.
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Post by Dabeagle on Mar 24, 2019 10:04:27 GMT -5
I finally finished C&K. Good story. I’m not ashamed to admit the last scene of the final chapter got me all misty-eyed. You really do tell an excellent tale, Dave. I'm pleased you enjoyed it! |
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Post by Steve T. on Mar 24, 2019 19:01:14 GMT -5
Man, I love a happy ending! Thanks for another good one.
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Post by baddius on Apr 2, 2019 6:04:23 GMT -5
One of the themes I got obsessed with in this story was the idea of "small acts" being only insignificant to certain people while being monumental to others and having great, rippling effects throughout some people's lives, while hardly touching others at all. Its amazing how perspective changes things for people.
Two examples I found were Brandon shoving Jerry away for The Kiss and Jerry talking to Zach about his gay friend. Brandon had no idea how much The Kiss impacted Jerry's life. To Jerry, it was the starting point for a lifetime of torment, rejection, and ostracization. For Brandon, it was a week of name-calling. While Jerry may have been imagining his fate as being far worse than it actually was (certainly debatable), Brandon was marginally affected and forgot about it rather quickly. Jerry believes Brandon destroyed him while Brandon believes Jerry caused him a bit of embarrassment.
Meanwhile, Jerry helped Zach out with small talk. To Jerry, it was pretty much just chatting with a hot guy about his gay friend. Zach's entire world changed with that conversation. He realized, in that moment, what a monumental idiot he was thinking that his friend coming out was somehow his friend hitting on him. With just a glimpse into Jerry's perspective, Zach was able to better understand what Brandon was going through and accept his best friend for who he was. Had this conversation not happened, Zach might not have been able to swallow his pride and face his best friend. Meanwhile, for Jerry, it was, again, chatting with a hot guy while staring at his pecs. Two sides of the same coin.
Sorry if this is poorly-conveyed. My thought were a lot clearer to me when I first conceived them.
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Post by baddius on Apr 2, 2019 6:22:03 GMT -5
As for the story taking place inside a bubble, I got the sense that it occurred in that manner because of Jerry's point of view. Jerry himself lived rather isolated from his peers and refused to allow anyone to get close to him. Because Jerry sees the world as hating him (but he does not hate himself), Jerry largely ignores the world and ignores any positive feedback the world gives him.
He finds it strange that his coworker is nice to him outside of work or even that he wants to talk about stuff that happened outside of work, because Jerry believes that he is only nice to him at work because they HAVE to be together. This isn't necessarily true, but Jerry fervently believes it.
He still believes the inner narrative that Brandon destroyed him, so he looks for any ulterior motive in the actions of Brandon and his friends. The only reason Zach gets a pass is because Jerry thinks Zach believes he owes him for helping him with his gay friend, whoever that is.
Someone mentioned that the world seems empty and said "When Zack yelled at them on the soccer field there was no reaction from anyone else, either cheers or jeers, as if there was no one else that existed there, and that chapter ending felt abrupt and indecisive" I believe this is because Jerry himself is not paying attention to anyone else. We know there certainly are no jeers, because Jerry would have acknowledged them, having fit his inner narrative. There could easily have been cheers and Jerry would write them off as them cheering at something else (certainly not him). I believe that the chapter ending is indecisive because Jerry himself is confused and is being confronted with reality and it doesn't fit HIS reality.
One thing I particularly enjoyed is how WRONG Jerry is about his place in society. He thinks they hate him, while, like everyone else, they barely even acknowledge he exists. Almost everyone lives in their own bubbles. Jerry's is just particularly small, so, to us readers, his world is empty. Proof that his world is populated with a wide variety of life exists. It can be found with Brandon's car getting vandalized. There is a whole, separate story in that one act that us readers do not even get to witness! In the end, we find out it wasn't actually someone who hated gays, but someone who hated that Brandon didn't date his sister. It was a very impersonal attack on Brandon for personal reasons that we will never get to see! The perpetrator bumped into Jerry's bubble for a moment and it was noticeable and seemed random. But the fact is, there were probably dozens of keyed cars, vengeful exes, and angry brothers that we never got to see because they didn't get noticed by poor introverted Jerry.
I love when stories make me think.
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