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Post by paul on May 18, 2019 15:22:41 GMT -5
There was a lot I enjoyed about the story, I'll get that out of the way first. But I have to wonder about these conversations Bobby and Sandy had about his family and what had happened to Alex. I don't know what kind of "tall tales" he's been telling her, but did she really think he'd been cavalierly joshing about something as personal as growing up with two fathers, or as harrowing as what Alec had gone through? She openly acknowledges that Bobby said he'd been tortured. How could she be content with just shrugging something like that off? And Bobby; was he actually unable to pick up on even the slightest hint of her incredulity? And if he was was, did he not realize that these were important matters they needed to come to an understanding about? If these were real people, I'd say that at the very least they had a serious communication problem, and more, despite all their professions of love, that they really didn't know each other that well. A hesitancy to openly address important issues like these, or being just plain oblivious of the need to, shows a lack of the kind of intimacy needed for a committed relationship. Given all that, Bobby's belief that Sandy would have some kind of Damascus moment when she met his family comes off as naive at best, and her having it doesn't convince me. I'd be more apt to believe that the Bobby we got to know in Sanitaria Springs would be the one having a Damascus moment about her.
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Post by TeddyBower on May 18, 2019 18:51:46 GMT -5
Given all that, Bobby's belief that Sandy would have some kind of Damascus moment when she met his family comes off as naive at best, and her having it doesn't convince me. I'd be more apt to believe that the Bobby we got to know in Sanitaria Springs would be the one having a Damascus moment about her. It's a funny thing, love. How many seemingly wonderful people have we known, ourselves, over the years whose brains fall out the moment they encounter a bit of pretty tail and fall in love? Love can be so damn blind that it's laughable. Perhaps Bobby is one of those unfortunate souls. And Dave, after everything you've stirred up here with this particular story (or is it my fault for starting the thread? 😮) you just might face a reader revolt if you don't resolve this thing!!! 🤣😂🤣
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Post by Dabeagle on May 18, 2019 21:11:31 GMT -5
That's a good point, Paul. In my mind, her brushing things off was more of a coping mechanism to avoid 'unpleasantness', which is how she was raised. Bobby knows she's not stupid and has seen something in her to give him faith in her, something he thinks is worth it. Given there were no rings on fingers, I'd say that that he was hoping for a change, but he also doesn't want to hurt her. It's a bunch of swirling emotions that he didn't handle very well. I think there are always situations where we have things we didn't handle well, even though we are basically a good person and this was one for him.
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Post by Dabeagle on May 18, 2019 21:14:18 GMT -5
Given all that, Bobby's belief that Sandy would have some kind of Damascus moment when she met his family comes off as naive at best, and her having it doesn't convince me. I'd be more apt to believe that the Bobby we got to know in Sanitaria Springs would be the one having a Damascus moment about her. It's a funny thing, love. How many seemingly wonderful people have we known, ourselves, over the years whose brains fall out the moment they encounter a bit of pretty tail and fall in love? Love can be so damn blind that it's laughable. Perhaps Bobby is one of those unfortunate souls. And Dave, after everything you've stirred up here with this particular story (or is it my fault for starting the thread? 😮) you just might face a reader revolt if you don't resolve this thing!!! 🤣😂🤣 HA! That will be a back burner. I have to apply the edit to the next story, posting to Patreon tomorrow, and then I may work the Jamie story that would represent the last of the ideas Ryan and I talked about for where his characters might go. I have two other commissions to write, but I haven't been in the right timeframe headspace yet for either of them, but we should see them as part of this summer's stories.
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Post by TeddyBower on May 18, 2019 22:02:46 GMT -5
Dabeagle said:
No worries. I'm a big boy and can probably withstand this issue fading into oblivion for a few months or even for ever! LOL!!
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pedro
Young Hound
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Post by pedro on May 19, 2019 9:46:57 GMT -5
Dabeagle: In my mind, her brushing things off was more of a coping mechanism to avoid 'unpleasantness', which is how she was raised. Bobby knows she's not stupid and has seen something in her to give him faith in her, something he thinks is worth it. Given there were no rings on fingers, I'd say that that he was hoping for a change, but he also doesn't want to hurt her. It's a bunch of swirling emotions that he didn't handle very well. I think there are always situations where we have things we didn't handle well, even though we are basically a good person and this was one for him.
Teddy Bower: It's a funny thing, love. How many seemingly wonderful people have we known, ourselves, over the years whose brains fall out the moment they encounter a bit of pretty tail and fall in love? Love can be so damn blind that it's laughable. Perhaps Bobby is one of those unfortunate souls.
Teddy Bower: (earlier post): He may love the girl, deeply, but he needed to have exercised a level of diplomacy that did not negate the truth of his family's history with bigotry and hatred... That's a tall ask in the heat on the moment, and perhaps not too many of us are up to the challenge.
There were times when I considered the Bobby in this story was not the Bobby from the original story or 'Meet the Parents' but decided love must be colouring his outlook and that Dave's comment, particularly the part I have put in italics and Teddy's earlier comment sum up his situation. (I doubt that I would be successful in Teddy's challenge.) If this sounds in conflict with my earlier comment, perhaps I may try and explain what I was meaning. Sandy is Bobby's guest in the family home and is a thousand or more miles from her own support network and no doubt feeling nervous. As such she should be entitled to expect him as her boyfriend to provide support - not necessarily 'tooth and nail' defence - enough to keep her from feeling too uncomfortable and isolated. If Bobby decides he is no longer interested in her because of her attitude, he should at least extend the courtesy to her of getting her home or at the very least hold that conversation with her privately. This is not the same situation as Chloe Pellegrini dumping Brian for homophobic comments in 'Must Love Books'. He was in his home town and had is own transport.
Am I guilty of suggesting a form of the 'Pretending' that the story is about? Possibly. However I live in Yorkshire, an area of the UK that has a reputation for plain speaking. My late sister-in-law could be as blunt as the best of them and many is the time I saw her she speak her mind and exacerbate a situation resulting in the opposite of what she wanted and probably a full-on argument as well, whereas a more nuanced approach would have achieved what was required calmly.
I think it fair to say that in all partnerships there will be tension between the partners and their parents families. It will vary in degree and may even result in the breaking of family ties, but for a partnership to be successful, the relationship between the partners should be the most important.
Finally, tongue-in-cheek I suggested that as a Yankee, Bobby was beyond the pale, but what if Sandy's family really were Yankee-hating Southerners and she genuinely loved him, would we not expect her to 'stand by her man'.
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Post by TeddyBower on May 19, 2019 15:37:26 GMT -5
Pedro said:
Good point, but I'm not sure it's exactly a straight across comparison unless some yankees kidnapped Sandy's brother, beat him to a pulp, Bobby didn't believe her when she told him, and said as much in front of her family. In that case would we be expecting her to side with Bobby? In front of her family? If that were the case she'd be in much the same situation as Bobby found himself. It would be a difficult spot, for either of them, in either case.
Not standing for her family would be just cause for them to be upset, and just cause for her to be unhappy with Bobby, in spite of how much she loves him and knows that underneath his ignorance he's a good person. What should she do?
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pedro
Young Hound
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Post by pedro on May 19, 2019 16:53:00 GMT -5
Teddy you have pushed my analogy further than I was intending to take it, but you make a valid point.
As you said before of Bobby, she is in a difficult situation that requires exceptional diplomacy to resolve to her satisfaction. She may well be unhappy with Bobby, but that happens to varying degrees between couples all the time. I think she needs to consider whether this is sufficiently bad to break up their relationship, or if the relationship is redeemable. If the latter she should not have their argument in front of her family for it will give them ammunition to be used to drive a wedge between them in the future. Part of her thinking will be what consequences she expects within her family if she stays with Bobby and if he is worth that price. (I presume ‘honour killing’ is not part of that price).
If she does decide to break with him, she still needs to give consideration to how he can leave her family home at once which he and the family will no doubt want - when she is in Bobby’s home she is 1000+ miles from home and beholden to him to get her to her home.
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Post by TeddyBower on May 19, 2019 17:44:45 GMT -5
Pedro, to a point, I can agree that conversations need to happen privately, but I don't absolve either one of them from at least attempting to make a statement at the time of the occurrence, whether it was Bobby in the story or Sandy in your analogy. This assumes, of course, that they're not so blinded that they even know what to do in the moment.
Hindsight being 20/20 and all that I think a statement would be something like, "Okay, let's take a step back. Sandy, you've become the light of my life and I wanted you to get to know my family, but my family is super important to me also. I love them beyond words. I don't want any of you to be hurt, including myself, so maybe I should speak privately with you guys before we have another conversation."
That or something that told all concerned that he placed the value of love on all of them. The fact that he dragged Sandy into Sasha's and Alex's home where he continued to chide Sasha about it as if it was all his fault was appalling. Did Sasha overreact? Perhaps a little, but the experience of devastating homophobia in his family is a huge factor, and understanding that, I can let that go much easier than the other.
In the end, I do forgive Bobby and Sandy. It was a learning moment for both, I think, but Bobby did little if anything to mitigate the hurt experienced by his family until he saw which way the wind was blowing. Life is made up of learning moments though. Mostly we survive them, but sometimes misunderstandings come between people who love, or who once loved each other and take years to resolve, if they resolve at all.
I'm reminded of the poem by the New Zealand poet Thomas Bracken titled Not Understood.
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pedro
Young Hound
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Post by pedro on May 20, 2019 1:00:07 GMT -5
Bracken’s poem deserves wider currency. I must admit to having seen it before and forgotten about it. Thank you for bringing it here.
Alas those that are most in need of reading the poem probably never will or will interpret it ‘with their narrow gauge’.
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Post by baddius on Jul 12, 2019 19:33:03 GMT -5
I must say, I am quite disappointed in Sasha. THIS is what far-right conservatives refer to when they say gays are not accepting of those who disagree with them. That "gays want not equal rights but special treatment above others. That their opinions count but others do not." Not saying this is true, but I still think Sasha was way out of line for condemning Sarah and her family as bigots without even giving the girl a chance. He had good reason from his perspective, but he's lucky (well Bobby is lucky) that Sarah took what he said and considered why he said it rather than just hearing his accusations confirm every negative thing she had ever heard about "the gays."
See... I don't see Sarah as bigoted. I see her as ignorant and, though ignorance often precedes bigotry, the two are not always mutual. Sarah doesn't "pretend" gays don't exist, so much as she believes them to be far more rare than they are and their plight to be far less severe than it is. After all, she believes the gay stereotypes are true and bases her assumptions on others' sexual attractions on those. She believes she has never met a gay person.
I also have a tendency to believe her family itself isn't as conservative as those around them probably are. I say this because they believe Bobby to be a jokester about having two dads. Bobby doesn't act feminine and who would admit such a thing? It must not be true! While such thinking can enable toxicity, the fact that they didn't consider it blasphemous and demand Bobby stay away from their daughter seems to suggest their beliefs about gays are simply a result of their environment, not a personal judgement they made. In other words, I don't think they themselves CARE, one way or another. They have no personal investment in the issue. They're sheep parroting the "beliefs of the community."
I say this because, while they don't care about gays and don't have any interest in learning, they aren't actively blocking out information. They're not "pretending gays don't exist;" they don't care if they do or not, because it doesn't affect them. Or they think it doesn't. They're ignorant, but, perhaps, not willfully so.
It isn't that they are ignoring a problem. They simply don't think the problem exists because neither they nor anyone they know had ever witnessed a gay person being harassed or experiencing prejudice! On top of that, they are reading in the news about legal same-sex marriage and growing acceptance of gays... With all of that going on, why would they have any reason to think they are experiencing prejudice. If anything, they might think the gays are overreaching with stories and sermons about bakeries and whatnot.
When Sarah tells Sasha that she thought the hazing incident was an exaggeration or fabrication because "these things don't happen," she believed it. There was no malice behind her statement. She even said it was "like a Hallmark movie." Clearly, Sarah held no animosity toward homosexuals.
She also believed the stereotypes, as shown by the questions she asked at dinner. All the signs indicate, to me, that she and her family are woefully ignorant... But not bigoted.
A bigot would not have sat at the table and tried to learn and make conversation. A bigot would not have looked shocked and been distracted upon finding out the hazing incident was real. A bigot would have praised the incident as the way things should be, not sat through half of dinner dreading that her brother had actually hurt someone when he "joked" about straightening someone out.
Sarah is a woman whise world view was down to be staggeringly inaccurate. She could not refute the evidence she witnessed. Which is why I am disappointed with Sasha.
He accused that woman of awful, horrid things. I understand his anger toward bigotry, but his ire was misplaced. Sarah is not a bigot. Sarah is ignorant, perhaps bordering on an innocent naivety. But, she is not a bigot. Perhaps her entire family is like that, including her brother, who very well could have been bragging about something that never happened as teenaged boys and young men often do, completely unaware what how serious what he was insinuating is.
Sarah cannot help that she was born into an environment that would foster ignorance and promote stereotypes as facts any more than Sasha can help his attraction to Alec. To expect different is unfair. The ignorant can't help that they are ignorant, for they aren't even aware of their state of ignorance. Bobby was right. She needed to be shown she was wrong. But Sasha judged her just as damningly as a fundamentalist preacher would judge him - based on preconceptions and without even giving her a chance.
Sure, she later admitted that she logically knew gays had to exist, but our knowledge and decisions are rarely based on logic. She conceded that her family was part of the problem, albeit passively, but there is a difference between what she now knows and what she did know (Also that might have just been Dave on his soap box). It is difficult to go against everything you have ever known armed only with the notion that it is probably inaccurate, but, now, she actually has a chance, thanks to Bobby. She has knowledge and a motivation to do what she now knows must be done.
Sasha, for just part, didn't help the situation by making accusations of bigotry. He is just lucky Sarah was willing to listen instead of instinctively ignoring everything he had to say. I guess this just shows that Sasha is flawed, after all. Alec painted Sasha as some kind of sagely, sexy, larger-than-life being. This just shows he is human, despite Alec's skewed perspective.
Great job, Dave, on giving us a Sasha-perspective story.
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Post by Dabeagle on Jul 12, 2019 22:55:54 GMT -5
I have to disagree with you this time, Mike. Not believing a group when they say they are persecuted, bullied and discriminated against because they haven't seen it personally is an entitled form of evil. Passive, but also by pretending not to see, they create a worse situation by their tacit approval. Sarah is a polite bigot whose beliefs are challenged in a way they weren't before.
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Post by PaulR5 on Jul 13, 2019 3:46:31 GMT -5
Yes, Sasha is right. One must also consider SASHA's background of being bullied and harassed. He know, from what happened to him and to Alec, and also probably knows what happened to Asher in the story where Sean first met him, that some ignorance MUST be corrected if progress is to be made.
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Post by baddius on Jul 13, 2019 17:45:40 GMT -5
I have to disagree with you this time, Mike. Not believing a group when they say they are persecuted, bullied and discriminated against because they haven't seen it personally is an entitled form of evil. Passive, but also by pretending not to see, they create a worse situation by their tacit approval. Sarah is a polite bigot whose beliefs are challenged in a way they weren't before. We'll have to agree to disagree then. I'm not saying Sasha was wrong for getting angry or for telling her she was enabling great evil. I actually think how he handled her in his home was perfect. My quarrel with Sasha is that I don't think he even gave her a chance. Since my original post, however, I realized that everything I know about Sarah is based on what Bobby, who is absolutely smitten with her, and Sarah have said. Bobby could be holding back facts and she could as well. Example: I just assumed her family decided Bobby was a jokester, when it's possible that Bobby got ejected from their home immediately and Sarah covered for him, convincing them he is a prankster who thought it would be worthy of chuckled, rather than Blasphemy. It could be that Sarah was only tolerating the same-sex couples BECAUSE of Bobby and the only thing holding her back from calling up an exorcist is because SHE thinks BOBBY only needs to "see the light," so she'll tolerate it for now. It could be that that harshness and passion of Sasha's rebuke convinced her to hear him out im a way that Bobby's gentle prodding never would have. I, as a reader, make alot of assumptions based on what I read. I would like to believe that Sasha's harsh outburst was unnecessary and that he could have gotten the same results by being more diplomatic. That doesn't make it true.
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